Ya know, this is a CROCK OF SHIT. I'm Sorry. I never knew AA was faith based, having never had to deal with this personally.
No one should EVER be court ordered to take this cock-a-mamey 12 Step BULLSHIT!
Let me Show you the Steps: The ORIGINAL AA 12-Step Program....
Now Let's Edit them to something that is WORKABLE for all...
Done Ranting....
No one should EVER be court ordered to take this cock-a-mamey 12 Step BULLSHIT!
Let me Show you the Steps: The ORIGINAL AA 12-Step Program....
- We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
- Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
- Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
- Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
- Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
- Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
- Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
- Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
- Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
- Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
- Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
- Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Now Let's Edit them to something that is WORKABLE for all...
- We admitted we were
powerlessover alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. Admitting a Problem GOOD, but not POWERLESS, Powerless is counterproductive to quitting, Admit you are ADDICTED and will need HELP. No One is Powerless! Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.Unnecessary Step, no magic snake oil please!Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care ofGodas we understood Him.Unnecessary Step, taking control of your own life would be a better directive. You ran your life into the ditch, now take the steps to get yourself out of it.- Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Taking Stock of Oneself is always Good.
- Admitted
to God(imaginary Sky-Daddies who do not talk back are Unnecessary, even if you believe in a God/Gods.!), to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. (But Still an Unnecessary Step considering you did this Step #1) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects ofcharacter.Unnecessary Step - No one can change YOU but YOU.Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.Unnecessary Step - COP OUT!- Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. THIS IS GOOD! THIS IS VERY GOOD, Acknowledge the people you hurt sincerely.
- Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. This is ALSO VERY GOOD, fix what you broke!
- Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. - Redundancy of this, is a good thing, For everyone not just alcoholics....
Sought throughprayerandmeditationto improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.Unnecessary Step - BULLSHITHaving had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.Unnecessary Step- MOAR BULLSHIT
Done Ranting....
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Comments
They work much better when you regard the spirit, rather then the exact word... but it's kina important to a lot of people to surrender ot god. all the power and energy and good thoughts still come from YOU... regardless of where you think it comes from.
Here are a couple links I dug up.. .take a look, they shouldn't take you more then 5 or 10 minutes to look at them. :)
http://www.agnosticaanyc.org/12steps.html
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/182996/help_for_atheists_and_agnostics_entering.html?cat=5
http://www.cyberrecovery.net/forums/showthread.php?t=368
http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/naway99.htm -- This one is really kinda nifty!
This post was prompted by me reading an article about a man who was sent to jail rather than have probation because he refused to go to AA because it was Faith based and and wanted another program and the judge said 'no' and sent him to jail unless he complied to the AA program.
Sorry I should have made that clear.
... I don't recall it being worded quite like that (as in I don't recall any mention of god et all). Has it gone under refinements?
This post was prompted by me reading an article about a man who was sent to jail rather than have probation because he refused to go to AA because it was Faith based and and wanted another program and the judge said 'no' and sent him to jail unless he complied to the AA program.
Sorry I should have made that clear.
I have known addicts though who will actually get afraid if you criticize the program, as if to admit that it has issues means that there is no hope for them but then admitting that IS step one. They blame any failure of the program to work for them on themselves. The core of all the programs is that you will be dependent on them for the rest of your life.
I do have a strong faith in God but putting all the responsibility on Him to fix you doesn't sit right with me. We are supposed to take responsibility for ourselves.
I grew up in a family with a lot of alcoholics and there is no one size fits all solution to not drinking because each person has a problem for their own unique combination of reasons. Genetic predisposition, self-medication for an underlying psychiatric condition, copying behavior that was modeled by parents and peers as acceptable, etc. Working with a good Cognitive Therapist with experience with addiction will do far more good than standing up and telling a room full of strangers that you are an alcoholic who has failed at life.
The above is having that "Crutch" in your life forever and if you slip "Oh God why did you forsake me and let me take that drink?"
Um, you lifted your own hand to your lips.
Both my grandfather's were alcoholoics but I barely remember either of them. One died when I was 8 and the other when I was 13... it's been a long time since I've dealt with alcoholism.
However back then, I was doing research and reading all these articles on how evidence showed that faith based rehab programs were significantly more effective. I was almost convinced that I had to accept it, but now I've done some more reading and am happy to say that it is totally not proven.
http://www.au.org/media/press-releases/archives/2001/05/success-rate-of.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P3-501627191.html
That made me happy, because it seemed completely illogical that for some reason, giving up responsibility to a "higher power" could possibly be more effective than taking responsibility yourself.
It has to remain non religious if it's funded by government. If they want to change the wording so that it can include some kind of secular concept of "a higher power" I'm okay with it. I am really okay if people want to use God to help them get over an addiction, if that's what floats their boat. But you should not force people who don't believe to do that. You have to give them a secular option.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103677
I am twelve years sober through the program of AA, and I am an atheist. Nobody rammed religion or spirituality down my throat. When I entered the program, people suggested that if I didn't believe in a higher power that I look to that inner part of myself, and it worked.
You can tear the Steps apart all you like, but because of AA & the 12 steps there are millions & millions of sober people in the world - some religious, some spiritual, some agnostic, some atheist... the list goes on. The important thing is the fellowship and the support. It is apparent you are reading the Steps in the context which alcoholics call the 'Wall Steps'. when they are read in context to the Big Book of Alcoholics anonymous, they take on a whole other meaning.
I tell you that every single step is necessary - one follows the next for a reason. If you had the wherewithal to open your mind and see past the semantics of the words (those of us who choose to stay sober and happy, I can assure you), you might consider that you are slagging off the ONLY CONCEPT that has ever helped Alcoholics to get and stay sober - EVER!!!!!
And there are studies to prove it... whoever (up above) said there aren't is wrong.
I am am a grateful recovered sober atheist alcoholic, and none of what seems to make you so angry about the steps & the program makes me angry.
Why do you care?
Bully for you that it worked... studies show it regularly DOES NOT: The Religion Virus: Christian Shocker: God-Based AA Program Harms Alcoholics
but had you read my post and any of the comments above you might have gleaned why I care from that.
My Blog, My opinion Mr. Anonymous.
I didn't realize I needed to sign in - my name is callee. And I have pretty large set of brass ones for a chick, so don't presume...
Sorry you had court mandated AA - but you must have been pretty fucked up to get the sentence. There are non-secular AA meetings - you just have to look for them. That's what I do. Look man, do you want to get sober? If you don't, you will make any excuse not too. If you do you will find a meeting that suits you.
Your drinking will never get better, it will only get worse. I know from where I speak. I have been in jail, shot, and pretty close to death several times, so I do know what I am talking about.
I didn't get in trouble every time I drank, but every time I got in trouble I was drunk!
You want to get sober? Go to AA. You don't? Then you have three choices:
1. Jail
2. Institution (looney bin)
3. Death
Good Luck!
My point, which you have obviously MISSED ENTIRELY, is no one, NOT ANYONE, should be forced by the government to take a FAITH BASED course. Period. They have to provide SECULAR ALTERNATIVES. THAT IS MY POINT. This post stemmed from a fact that a man in Wisconsin was sent to JAIL because the judge ordered him to take AA and he said "No, I want to take a secular program" and the judge REFUSED his request. It was AA only or Jail. THAT is the problem's root madam.
FAITH vs. SECULARISM
Keep your god damn church out of government.
You must be drunk now or have killed enough brain cells to seriously have impaired your logic and ability to read an entire post coherently if you can't get that through your head. For crying out loud. You jump to far too many conclusions. Did you even read the article I linked to in my last response to you? (That by the way is rhetorical, I can tell you didn't).
So I will respectfully say in parting... Go away, I do not care one iota what you have to say. Keep your mumbo-jumbo, mystical sky-daddy faith, keep deluding yourself there is a higher power, forgo any culpability to your addiction, and good luck staying sober.
I am in Bermuda so perhaps it won't link me? Happens sometimes; I don't know. Anyway, the information about the guy and court and refusal to go to AA is not on this page for me to see - so how could I know. SORRY!!! And for the record: I agree with you as I am an atheist (which you seem to have not heard in my first post), and I believe people must always have a choice. I have no time for religion in any shape or form.
You like yelling - so yell at me... whatever... sorry I mistook you for the drunk person... it was an honest mistake.
signed the girl-chick with the brass cohones,
Mr. anonymous
Bermuda blocks hyper links? Really? (Yes, that was sarcasm). Here try again: http://religionvirus.blogspot.com/2010/04/christian-shocker-god-based-aa-program.html
Honest Mistakes = Didn't bother to read everything, jumped to conclusions and I'm the bad guy here? It's my journal, it's my opinion, this discussion is not and never was about you, total stranger.
Perhaps you didn't see the other posts I've made, because you perhaps didn't look for them? I have more than one entry on my blog and half of this conversation took place on Facebook (This blog is linked to that.) You have half of a whole.
So just because you presume and jump to conclusions, does not make me the one at fault in this little debate (debacle of logic). So once again, you may take your brass whatzits, and go antagonize someone else. I would however recommend, before sticking your nose into someone's business, you have the complete story, you actually read everything being stated, and think before you hit a reply button.
I'm glad AA worked for you, this was not about *YOU* this was about faith vs. secularism and how faith based programs that allow passing of culpability off on metaphysical reasons/excuses and how courts are forcing faith on those of non-faith is unconstitutional.
It's also scientifically proven to do more harm than good (Above article) I'm glad it worked for you, you are in a minority unfortunately.
So you can take your soapbox with you please, you've missed my points repeatedly and this is the last time I am going to respond to you. I'm an exhausted with trying to clarify things for you and you repeatedly "not getting it".
And for the record, I saw you state you were an atheist, then in the next breath talk about looking to metaphysical means. Which rather negates each other frankly.
Never talked about a metaphysical means - now your just making shit up. No one said anything was your fault. I did read the hyperlink - long article so... I agree you can lead a horse to water.. but you can't make him drink. What I said was I said I couldn't find the story about the guy who was mandated to go to AA or go to jail.
And I did understand your points - unfortunately my confusion lay in my thinking you were talking about yourself. I said I was sorry that I was mistaken, you don't have to accept it - but I meant no harm.
Don't bother responding. I don't need validation, good or bad.
Oh, and... the photos of the flowers are amazing!
And... love that you used Animal for your "fuck Sarah Palin" post. My Father designed animal - he was the head designer at Muppets for 30 years.
Hope you can truce.
Here was the article that prompted me to rant so you can see it:
http://www.facebook.com/rblairscott?v=wall&story_fbid=103977949645206&ref=mf#!/note.php?note_id=417124716345&id=71352317417&ref=mf
My LiveJournal and Facebook are linked (My LJ feeds into my FB but not the reverse.)
And I was incorrect about the state. I said Wisconsin, it was California. Wisconsin was something else this morning. My mistake.
Thanks about my Garden, I love it very much.
And Michael Frith is your Dad? Big Fan of your Dad's designs. But I thought he was only with Jim Henson for 20 years.
I know he worked with Random House and Saturday Night Live (Land of Gorch) prior to joining with Henson officially (So they did work together peripherally) and then Joined Henson full-time in 1975 as Art Director VP in 1978 and Director 1985 -- He left Henson Productions in 1995 to start Sirius. Or am I incorrect?
I've always been a big fan of his artwork, Between Michael Frith and Brain Froud they are main designers and the defining "look" that everyone associates with Henson's Muppets and Movies.
I've been a long time admirer for many years.
Yes, Michael Frith is my Dad. Conceptual designer for all you mentioned and so much more (she says with a touch of pride!). He retired from Muppets some five years after Jim died, but still worked on many Muppet projects for years after that - The Wubbulous world of Dr. Seuss, Between the Lions (his own show),to name a few. Now he has a new project - go to www.nostrings.org.uk - he's the one holding the camel puppet.
You can find me on FB - Callee Frith
Mine is Dana Armstrong -
http://www.facebook.com/fablespinner
direct link